Coumarin in Queal

[Bapplepie]

As someone who downs Awesome Apple Pie by the metric ton, I’m slightly worried if anyone has measured coumarin levels in Queal. It’s clearly evident that the product contains cinnamon if comparing the dry powder to the paler varieties: I mean besides that it smells like cinnamon, and tastes like cinnamon, there’s also small dark brown particles in the powder that look undeniably just like a ground up cinnamon.

Cinnamon in itself isn’t the issue however but as the amount of coumarin varies wildly by species and it’s moderately toxic to liver, therefore the question:

How much coumarin there is and if nobody has thought about measuring it yet, how about doing so since it seems exceptionally good time as you’re adjusting the recipe anyway for Queal 5.0?

[Floris_Queal]

Short answer: you're going to be perfectly fine.

Long answer: If you eat 1 metric ton of Queal, 1000kg, then you would consume about 20g of coumarin. This would put in you dangerous territory. But you could say that eating 1000kg in one go would also bring about some problems (like drinking more than 1000 liters haha).

In each meal of Queal you will find about 3mg of coumarin, or about 10mg for a bag of Awesome Apple Pie. Is miles below the median lethal dose (LD50) of 275 mg/kg (which at 80kg is about 22g (so only at 1 metric ton you would reach these levels).

I hope this helps and keep on eating those Awesome Apple Pie Queals

[Bapplepie]

Thanks for providing the numerical data, however I’m not trying to murder anyone so LD50 is rather wrong metric to go by. After all it’s value that’s more or less guaranteed to kill 50% of subjects.

To quote people far more knowledgeable than myself “tolerable daily intake of 0.1 milligram coumarin per kilogram body weight that can be ingested daily over a lifetime without posing a risk to health (Tolerable Daily Intake, TDI) established by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA)”. If our Eric Example is consuming Awesome Apple Pie as sole source of nutrition the 80kg of weight only allows for 8mg per day which the 10mg per bag exceeds somewhat. Using other flavors obviously lowers the given amount per day so it’s not an issue if consuming Awesome Apple Pie only in moderate quantities and other flavors on a regular basis.

Going backwards on the calculation, that amount of coumarin translates being roughly one teaspoon of Cinnamomum Cassia (species also known as Chinese Cinnamon or “the cheaper cinnamon”). Using Cinnamomum Verum (also known as True Cinnamon or “the more expensive one”) would put you at significantly lower levels but as it’s more costly it would affect the incredient cost as well...

[Floris_Queal]

Thanks for even looking further into it. Just wanted to mention the LD50 for fun.

But you're right with the EFSA (and BFR (German Food Safety Authority) saying 0.1 milligram per kg can be done without health risk.

[Bapplepie]

It’s not really fun though. LD50 would cause 50% of the people die on a single dose, but since the effect stacks up, you risk liver and kidney damage over time.

For someone lightweight as yours truly the coumarin content for single pouch is almost twice as big as the safe value so I absolutely should not keep on eating those as a sole source of nutrition. And unless weighting over 100kg nobody should eat one pouch per day.

It’s really worrying that your website proudly proclaims that “It is safe to replace all three meals with Queal and drink it 3 times a day, as there are no known health risks.” despite the fact that it’s far cry from it.

[Floris_Queal]

Just to defend the safety of Queal and to give so primary links.

" Considering the toxicity data on coumarin, including the timing of the onset of liver effects,
recovery of these effects after cessation of exposure to coumarin and the elimination half-life,
the Panel concluded that exposure to coumarin resulting in an intake 3 times higher than the
TDI for one to two weeks is not of safety concern. "
- i.e. eating 24mg per day for a longer time is not a safety concern

" “regarding the quantitative evaluation of
the human studies, the lowest daily dose of coumarin that produced liver toxicity can be used
as a point of departure for the risk assessment”. Based on the data of Bergmann (1999), who
identified a daily dose of 25 mg to be the lowest documented dose capable of inducing this
hepatotoxic response, the BfR applied an extrapolation factor of 5 (assuming a typical slope
of the dose-response curve) resulting in a level of 5 mg coumarin per day, which is expected
to cause no adverse effects, even in sensitive people. This corresponds to a TDI of 0.1 mg/kg
Coumarin bw. Thus, the TDI of 0.1 mg/kg bw established by EFSA in 2004 based on animal data was
further supported by the evaluation of the BfR (2006a) based on human data."

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/scientific_output/files/main_documents/793.pdf

I want to be 100% clear and let you know that we find health to be the primary driver of our recipes.
All our decisions are based around EFSA recommendations first, and where possible input from the community.
Everything consumed in too large quantities can be a health risk (even water),
but at these levels and in a normal consumption pattern, coumarin is no health risk!

[Bapplepie]

Yes I’m aware that “intake 3 times higher than the TDI for one to two weeks is not of safety concern" but it comes rapidly problematic when consuming monotonic Queal as sole nutrition: even occasional heavy use is fine, it becomes a problem with diet that contains large amounts, or consisting solely of Awesome Apple Pie.

The researches heavily underline that consuming larger quantities for shorter periods is absolutely fine (and come on, who hasn’t devoured a box of gingerbread cookies at Christmas) it’s the longer term average that’s the issue: I’m not terribly worried for the 3 weeks I’ve been basically living off Awesome Apple Pie solely, but I am worried if I were to continue on a single flavor diet (not to mention if some hapless fool happens to do the same without realizing the possible health risks in doing so).

You are correct that everything should be taken in moderation, including water, but nowhere it is mentioned that using a single flavor of Queal as source of daily nutrition poses a potential for health hazard and it’s only healthy meal replacement if varying the flavors around.

[Bapplepie]

I’m just going to assume the radio silence translates to as “We are not going to lift a finger about actually doing something about this.”

I get it that making Queal recipe healthier would cost actual money, and such the profits-over-health approach saddens me greatly. I also get it that in the modern day it’s all fashionable to be indifferent instead of say, pre-emptively putting up at least a warning such as “Consuming Awesome Apple Pie in excess of 20 bags per month for average weighted person, or 15 bags per month for lightweight person can potentially cause liver and kidney damage.”

Putting up such a warning wouldn’t require much and wouldn’t cost much besides potentially lost sales; I mean for crying out loud, you have a warning about laxative effects, which at best causes significant discomfort, whereas overdosing on something that’s measured to be toxic can result in one’s death.

Can’t help but wonder how the local equivalent of FDA would appreciate selling something that when used in correct quantities contains excessive amount of toxic byproduct. I mean Soylent got plenty of flak for containing heavy metals in their product but I guess “any publicicity is good publicity” nowadays...

[Floris_Queal]

I get it that making Queal recipe healthier would cost actual money, and such the profits-over-health approach saddens me greatly

This is not a discussion about the cost of the flavouring and that one is better than the other. I'm trying to say that I think you're very much inflating the medical effects of coumarin, especially in the quantities that are in Queal Awesome Apple Pie.

whereas overdosing on something that’s measured to be toxic can result in one’s death.

Here again you mention that it can result in death, but that is only with levels 1000x times what is in Queal.

Both here at the office and at production we actively monitor the effects of our products and take into account what it does to the human body. We are BRC certified and actual food scientist are overseeing production. I don't take this lightly, but also don't want to cause panic or concern where it's not needed.

You're taking the most sensitive case (where the BfR applied an extrapolation factor of 5), for a person consuming only Queal Awesome Apple Pie, which then is only slightly above the level where any toxicity effects can be found (assuming 8mg as threshold for 80kg person), and what effect that could be found was "the lowest documented dose".

--

This all being said, I will coordinate with production and let them sample other flavourings for Awesome Apple Pie.

In the meantime I would recommend that, if you wish to continue to eat Queal, that you strongly consider mixing up the flavours and/or consuming your third meal from a 'traditional' meal.

[Bapplepie]

You keep referring to 80kg weighting person as reference but not everyone are built as heavy: I’m significantly lighter weight and I’m sure there are several people in the 50kg range eating Queal. Eating appropriate amounts of Awesome Apple Pie would put them at twice the recommended amount.

To make a loose layman comparison I could compare the exposure to alcohol: you can die on a single dose if it’s significantly excessive, but you can also develop cirrhosis over the span of years with heavy use. The amounts of coumarin in Queal isn’t an issue over a shorter span of time, but could well lead to a liver damage if consumed daily for years (which seems rather ironic if you think about it, getting liver damage from eating healthy).

If you truly desire Queal to be healthy it should be really easy to fix. Cinnamomum Cassia and Cinnamomum Verum taste the same and real differences come to the two commonly used criteria of picking the one used: Cinnamomum Cassia is slightly cheaper but contains significant amounts of coumarin (up to 12000mg per kg) whereas Cinnamomum Verum is slightly more costly but contains almost no coumarin (less than 100mg per kg).

P.S. if you need assistance in fine tuning the flavor I’d gladly help where possible